Technology, Activism & Abolition
In this episode, we speak with several members from Color Coded. Color<Coded> is a collective based in Tongva Land/Los Angeles, holding space for BIPOC to co-teach, co-create, and co-own technologies. We speak to them about how they organize in community and embody abolition.
Email: colorcodedcollective@gmail.com
Instagram: @ColorCodedCollective
Twitter: @ColorCodedLA
#EmbodyAbolition #BuildManyWorlds
Episode Mentions:
Color <Coded> Go To’s:
Prince- Starfish and Coffee
FKA twigs - holy terrain feat. Future
Bryce ‘s Go To’s:
Strafe- Set It Off
Transcript (Please Excuse Errors)
[Music Intro ♫]
LaToya [LS]: Hey listeners! Welcome to Abolition Science Radio, we’re your hosts. I’m LaToya Strong-
Atasi [AD]: And I’m Atasi Das. We’re here to talk all things science and math and their relationship to-
LS: Colonialism
AD: Oppression
LS: Resistance
AD: Education
LS: Liberation
AD: And so much more.
[ ♫ Music fade out.]
[0:25]
AD: Hey y’all.
LS: Hey!
AD: Welcome back to another episode. How you doing Toya?
LS: I’m good. Ha ha, how are you doing?
AD: Ha ha ha, long time, no see.
LS: It’s a long time, no see.
AD: Ha ha.
LS: Since y’all aren’t here, y’all don’t get the joke, but we’re doing some, this is like our third, fourth? Intro recording.
AD: Ha ha ha ha.
LS: So, ha ha.
AD: Behind the scenes. Just so you know, that’s one of the things that happened.
LS: I think, in theater, or movies, it’s called breaking the fourth wall. Did we just do that?
AD: Ooooh.
LS: Is that a thing for podcasts?
AD: Let’s just call it that.
LS: Mmk.
AD: Even if it is or isn’t, I don’t know.
LS: Ha ha ha.
AD: We broke the fourth wall. Ok. Cool. January – we’re so excited to have this episode. Well, we’re taping in January, I don’t know when you’re gonna hear it.
LS: Yeah. Capricorn season!
AD: Woooo!
LS: I’m a Capricorn y’all.
AD: Yes! Your birthday’s coming up!
LS: It is coming up!
AD: Everybody turn up. January – all of January!
LS: Ay ay ayy!
(Both laugh)
AD: For all our January – is it all Capricorn, for all of January?
LS: Girl, I do not know.
AD: Oh ok.
LS: These signs, I just know that I’m a Capricorn.
AD: Ha ha ha ha.
LS: That’s it, that’s all I know.
AD: Ok, got it.
LS: Ha ha.
[1:31]
AD: So, we usually do this thing called Go-To’s, as you know – may know, or may not, let me not have assumptions – maybe you don’t know. We do this thing called Go-To’s. Ha ha.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And we talk about kinda, some of our Go-To things. What is our Go-To this week?
LS: Ok, Go To. So, have we ever done one: if you’re feeling sad, what picks you up?
(Pause)
LS: Ok, so let’s not do that one.
AD: Alright, so what’s a Go-To – what’s a song –
LS: Ha ha ha.
AD: If you wanna get to know somebody, and you wanna know their music interests, what do you ask – like, do you ever ask anybody about their musical interests? Or like, have conv – I don’t know.
Bryce: Like, the way I would ask them?
AD: Yeah, how would you ask them?
Speaker 3: I’ll ask (inaudible).
AD: Oh ok. I don’t know if we’ve ever done that.
LS: Like, your Go-To artist.
AD: Artist.
LS: Like, dat’s it, Go-To artist. That’s a hard one.
AD: That’s a hard.
Speaker 3: To be honest, Rihanna.
AD: Really!
LS: Oh, Rihanna.
AD: That seems, you felt very solid.
LS: Wait, can you be heard from there?
Speaker 3: (Inaudible)
LS: No, come on over. (Singing) Come on over, come on over baby!
AD: Oh, hey! Oh wow.
Speaker 3: 1, 2, 1, 2.
LS: Ayyy! Ready, he’s ready.
AD: Hi Bryce!
Bryce [B]: Hi, how you guys doing?
AD: Good, how are you?
B: I’m cool. Happy new years!
LS: Yeah!
AD: Aww!
AD & LS: Happy new years!
LS: So, Bryce is our sound engineer. How many of our episodes have you been here with us?
B: This is the third one.
LS: Is it – that’s it?
B: Yeah.
AD: Feels like we’ve known each other for a long time.
LS: Yeah ha ha.
B:
LS: Wait – but did you? The third one here at the new studio?
B: Um, no, this is the second one, old studio was the first one.
LS: Third one – oh. Ok.
AD: So, I was just asking you about, what would you ask people – and you said, what did you say that you would ask people?
B: I would ask them: who’s their favorite artist?
[3:23]
AD: And you seem really – what did you say was your favorite artist? B: Um, Rihanna.
LS: Ayyy!
AD: Nice.
LS: Rihanna. Rihanna needs to, ok let’s just get this out.
AD: Ha ha ha.
LS: She said something was coming in 2019, has come and gone and we have yet to see this new album.
B: Oh, she said she was dropping something.
LS: She said that she was dropping it.
B: Gonna surprise everybody.
LS: Yeah. Ha ha ha.
B: Knowing her, just surprising everybody.
AD: It’s true.
LS: Pulling a Frank Ocean.
AD: Oh, nooo! Why are you gonna have her do that! Nooo.
AD: Could you answer that?
LS: I could not - like, I could not answer that. I would say, right now, like my two artists that I listen to the most is Burna Boy and Megan Thee Stallion.
AD: Not Solange?
LS: I could say that with confidence, but I couldn’t… No, I mean, I fucks with Solange, but right now, it’s like those two would be.
AD: Mhmm.
LS: Who I go to. Like shower, working out, cooking.
B: Mhmm. Is it cause of their style of music or you just like a certain type of genre?
AD: Oh.
LS: It’s their style. For Burna Boy, it’s like his vibe.
B: Oh ok, I see.
LS: It’s just a – for Megan Thee Stallion, she just…like, it’s the style of music.
AD: Mhmm.
LS: And just, the sort of like, feeling that I get from it.
B: Oh so you, so like, any mood you in, you’d listen to both of them?
LS: Yeah. Happy, sad, they just do it for me like regardless of what mood I’m in.
B: Oh, I see.
AD: Oh, I like that.
LS: Tired, energetic, morning, night, working out, relaxing.
AD: What if you’re studying? Cause I –
LS: Oh no, not if I’m studying. I would not study, I would be –
LS & AD: Laughing.
B: Oh, I see.
LS: I would not be studying.
AD: How about for you, you like music according to like, anything? Would Rihanna fit all moods?
B: Yeah, well. Well, I have different artists that I listen to for different – I’m a skateboarder.
AD: Ok!
LS: Oh!
B: I listen to a lot of old school music when I skate, and then I’ll listen to Rihanna if I’m just like chillin, and I’m bored. And if I’m at a party or something, then I’ll listen to anything the DJ play. As long as it sounds good.
AD: Yeah.
B: But it depends on the mood, what I listen to.
[5:17]
AD: Nice.
LS: Ok wait – two things. So, one, I wasn’t expecting – so, for Burna Boy and Megan Thee Stallion, I can listen to those two anytime, but there are other artists where it’s only certain –
AD: Things.
LS: Only certain things.
AD: Times.
LS: But, how long have you been skateboarding?
B: Um, about eight years now. I only been in America for 4 years.
LS: Ah.
B: So I was skating back in the West Indies. I’m from Dominica.
LS: Mhmm.
B: So I started skating there. Like I heard, it was a song that made me start.
AD: Really?!
B: It was like an old school song, it’s called “Set It Off.” It’s like an old school jam, from the 80s.
AD: No kidding, we’re gonna have to find it. We’re gonna play it for you.
LS: Yes!
AD: And for us.
B: Yeah. Everybody likes that song so when I heard it, I’m just like – I just had (…)
LS: Wait, what’s that – Set It?
B: “Set It Off”. It’s by Strafe.
LS: Sing it!
AD: Sing it, ha ha ha.
B: Nah, it’s just instruments all together.
LS: Oh!
B: It’s like, like a lot of hip hop songs, they sample that one song.
LS: Got it.
AD: Really?!
B: You could play it anywhere, kids bump to it.
AD: Oh.
B: Old people, it’s…
AD: I love that.
B: Yeah. Anybody that hears it. It’s like a legendary song, so no matter – it could be fifty years from now, you listen to it, you’re gonna like it.
LS: Ok, cool.
B: It’s just instruments all together. They have vocals in it, but it’s different parts.
LS: Mhmm.
B: It’s more like instruments.
AD: So that got you started into skateboarding?
B: Yeah.
AD: Sweet.
B: I just heard it. And I’m just like ‘yo, for some reason, I just wanna ride a skateboard to this song.’
LS: Wow! That’s so cool. I wanna know what song it is now, the only song I have in my head, I don’t think it’s that. Just like (singing) ‘set it off on the ..’
B: Yes, that!
LS: That song?!
B: Yeah, that’s the song.
LS: Oh!
AD: Oh, you do know it!
B: You never heard it before?
LS: (singing) AD: Maybe?
B: You’ve probably heard it before, you probably.
LS: You might have heard it before. Wow, that song made you wanna skateboard?!
AD: I love that.
LS: So then you just went and bought a skateboard.
B: I just started, yeah. And then I started listening to other, um, like, a lot of people’ll think I’ll just listen to hip hop. Like, I love hip hop but I also like, blues music. Jazz, stuff like that. Like, it’s different. That’s why I’m like, sound engineer, cause I like all types of genres. If I’m in the car or something, they don’t wanna hear my playlist.
AD: Ha ha ha. They’re like, what are you doing here?
B: Nobody (…)
[7:19]
AD: The topic that we’re gonna be delving into in this episode is, about technology, community organizing, and activism.
LS: Yes! And we are doing that with the Color Coded Collective who are based out
AD: In Tongva Land/Los Angeles.
LS: What do they do?
AD: So, they are a group that, on their website, they talk about holding space for BIPOC, or Black, Indigenous, People of Color, to co-teach, co-create, and co-own technologies. Pretty cool, um, and we’re gonna find out more about what that means, what they, how they’re doing it – why did we ask them? Specifically.
LS: I mean, they’re really interesting group, and interesting in the sense that they are living out their values from the top to the bottom if that makes sense. So, they put on workshops, they do trainings, they offer office hours to the community, to provide them support on tech related projects, they examine what it means to be in solidarity through how they organize themselves as a collective. So, they just do a lot, and I think when we think about abolition, they really embody it. And not in a way that’s like, ‘oh this is so perfect.’ But, owning also up to the messiness.
AD: Yeah.
LS: Of it, and learning through the process of how do we move towards liberation through abolition.
AD: So, it’s gonna be a great conversation. We have two folks from the collective that joined us, and we’ll share this conversation now.
LS: Mhmm.
[8:46] [Recording switches to pre-recorded interview.]
LS: Alright so, we have with us Aya and Cesia from the Color Coded Collective. We are so excited to have you, so thank you for taking the time out of your busy days, your busy schedules to be in conversation with us. We always start our show off by asking our guests to tell us what you are listening to. So, if you could please – oh shit! That’s my bad. First, tell us a little bit about yourself and also what you’re listening to.
[9:13]
Aya [A]: Hi, thank you for having us as well. My name is Aya, I’m a member of Color Coded. Um, my background is in art, but my professional background has been mainly in education. Specifically in afterschool programming. That’s me.
AD: Nice.
A: And, what I’m listening to, I feel like I’m always listening to Prince, but right now specifically, I’m listening to a lot this song called “Starfish and Coffee.”
AD: Starfish and Coffee?
A: Yeah.
AD: Ah.
A: Ha ha.
(Nice.)
C [C]: Hi, good afternoon, this is Cesia talking. Thanks for having us, I appreciate the work that you all do so, this is exciting. A little bit about myself, I am a member of Color Coded. I also do a lot of art and facilitating like art and healing spaces, specifically for focusing on families affected by mass incarceration and for undocumented communities. And right now, I’m listening to a lot of FKA Twigs. Um, her new album just came out.
LS: So good!
C: But, the song that’s coming to mind is “Holy Terrain.”
LS: That album is so good. So good.
C: Ha ha ha. I was like, I love her, so.
(Ha ha ha)
C: Constantly listening to her.
[10:38]
AD: Thank you for introducing yourselves briefly and sharing that piece. And so you both talked about being members of this group that we wanted to kind of find out more about today. So, what is the Color Coded Collective? Or who is it? What is it? Tell us just about it.
A: Yeah, so, Color Coded is – we’re 11 members. And, our range and like, our professional backgrounds are – some of us are artists, some of us are organizers, designers, um, developers and educators. So, there’s kinda a range there, but over half of our collective has some kind of background in art. And some of us will call ourselves artists and maybe some don’t, but we all do very artsy things. Ha ha. And we’re a POC only space that centers historically excluded people in the co-teaching, the co-creation, and the co-ownership of new technologies. Our work supports and amplifies groups and individuals who are uplifting and sustaining communities of color here in LA and beyond. And our goal is to advance community centric projects, to stay lifelong learners, to protect our families, um, to defend our hoods, decolonize and indigenize, liberate ourselves and grow our collective wealth, and thrive together. So we really prioritize building and deepening our relationships with each other as well as groups that are doing similar work and have similar values.
[12:13]
LS: Yes, ok so. So many questions! My first question, you mentioned this phrase, “new technologies,” can you tell us what you mean by new technologies? C: Yeah, I think a lot of what we explore is like, how do we make sure that our communities are healthy and like, can live a dignified life? And because, with the current world that we live in, we know that a lot of like, folks of color, specifically Black and Indigenous folks, trans folks, like anybody who kinda deviates from the norm, um, the normal bodied, which we define as like a cis white male, um straight male, right. So, while these technologies might be working for the health of those specific bodies, it’s not working for the bodies that we’re in community with.
LS: Mhmm.
C: So, we know that we have to create new technologies so that we can take care of each other and support each other.
LS: Yeah, thank you for framing technologies in that way. I think that’s very useful for errbody. Ha ha.
AD: For sure. I also appreciate in your description of the Collective, that you talked about how it’s like really community centric. And specifically, those who’ve been historically exploited, oppressed, in various ways. And so, that is like a stance, I feel like is not necessarily common when we’re talking about technology and the use of it, and so, I’m wondering – if I segway to the next question, of what is the story of, about how and why this Collective came together? How did you guys come to your understanding of what was going on? Yeah. Could you just tell us that story?
[13:50]
C: Yeah, the Color Coded, was kinda first started from doing anti-displacement work here in LA. And this was about like, three years ago, so 2015. And at this point, the mainstream narrative on gentrification really centered the developers or the folks who were moving in to the new communities. So, a lot of the language was revitalization. I can never say that word but, ha ha.
A: Revitalization.
C: That word. Ha ha.
AD: Yes.
C: Ha ha, urban renewal, like all these languages um, equitable development right? But, these narratives that, or these words that, weren’t really capturing what was actually happening on the ground floor. Or like, what we were seeing happening to our neighbors or to friends who were from, you know, these communities. So, for us, it was really about how do we take back that narrative? And taking back the means of production, right. Because it’s not enough to just share your story if you can’t publish it, if you don’t have autonomy and all of that, so. The idea was to kind of create like, a digital platform where communities could actually share their story. Um, at this point, a few friends and I had gathered folks from all over the city to come together because we thought, right, Boyle Heights was seeing what was happening in Echo Park. Boyle Heights was able to see what was happening in Highland Park and in these other areas. So, how can we learn from each other and support each other knowing that there’s different local contexts depending on which neighborhood or which part of the city you’re on but, how can we work together?
[15:25]
So, we had brought people from all over the city doing anti-displacement work. And that’s where I met someone who had a tech developer background who’s the co-founder, uh, Chris. So, I asked Chris, I was like - Hey, I don’t have these skills. I have this vision, can we create a space where we can learn how to code, how to build our own website, because you know, we want to publish this narrative about what’s actually happening, um, what displacement is happening in the city.
AD: Just to clarify about the city, you’re talking about in California?
C: Yeah, sorry. LA, Color Coded is based in LA.
AD: Ok.
C: So, we – yeah, our Collective is rooted here.
[16:02]
AD: And, so most of the communities you’re talking about are in LA and surrounding, or different neighborhoods in LA?
C: Yeah, yeah. It’s basically, like the areas that are getting gentrified are, like, East LA, or areas that have been historically um, predominantly communities of color. So yeah, East LA, it’s, at this point in 2015, it wasn’t quite happening like in South Central, in the way that it’s happening now.
[16:29]
LS: Great. Thank you for sharing the story of how Color Coded Collective came to be. And just focusing on this Collective part, cause I think when we think about, how do we disrupt, you know, colonial ways of being – I think like, the way in which your Collective is structured is in and of itself a way to do that. And so, could you sort of speak about how Color Coded Collective has taken on this term Collective and enacted that? I don’t know if that makes sense, cause I was sort of stumbling through words.
[16:59]
C: Yeah, no. That makes sense. So, I think what happened is, you know, fast forward, after talking to Chris, after having this initial conversation, there was a few of us who just kind of started meeting like, at my kitchen table. Wherever we could take up space, we were meeting and just sharing um, dialogue and I think, yeah. As more folks started sharing and more folks started joining in the conversation, what we were really talking about is not, you know, necessarily access to housing, even though it came out of like, anti-displacement work, but just like, access to like, health and dignity. And for that, you need housing, you need access to healthcare, you know, you need access to like, a stable job and income. Um, clean air, like all the things that are good for your body, for your soul. I think, as we were talking, it became clear that there wasn’t really a space where we could kind of, yeah, just kind of share what was going on. At this point folks, a lot of us, you know, were working in the non-profit um, the non-profit industrial complex. Some of us working, were working at like tech spaces.
LS: Mhmm.
C: So, I think for us, the Collective kind of became a space where we could build relationships with each other. And I think, to kind of speak on like, the I think you said, decolonizing – the Collective, but, there’s the fact that we’re a Collective, but yeah, kind of, we were also isolated while we were all experiencing the same things. And, the story became that, you know, it was a lack of access, it was a lack of having a world that was designed for us, um, for people who look like us, um, to be healthy. So, that kind of, you know start talking about like who got to tell the story or who got to design this world, and you know, these are old stories. Um, colonization being a big one, folks were able to kind of export their ideology worldwide and we’re still seeing the effects of those stories today. So, yeah I think for us, it is very important. It is intentional that it is a Collective, it is intentional that it is non-hierarchical, that we have a consensus, horizontal decision-making process. And transparency and communication within the collective.
[19:10]
LS: Thank you. Could you just for our listeners, and for myself - the horizontal decision-making, those phrases that you said at the end – so just for anyone who’s thinking about maybe thinking about starting a collective, what are those things?
[19:20]
A: I think that, looks like, there’s 11 of us and whenever there’s some kind of important decision that needs to be made, everyone gets to vote and weigh in on that process. We don’t really make um, decisions, as individuals for the Collective. And so, we even use like online platforms to vote if we all can’t be in the same space at the same time. It also um, means that we make it a commitment to meet twice a year in a bigger, like, retreat. And, it’s kind of like an extended meeting but we spend time with each other and vote on certain like, projects that we want to be a part of. Or, what our vision is gonna look like for the next year. What kind of workshops we’re interested in doing, things like that.
[20:05]
LS: Ok, thank you. Sorry, I have one more. None of our questions was about the structure but now that I’m actually speaking to you, I’m like – these questions are so important because I think sometimes people say a thing, like ‘oh we’re for liberation’ or we’re for no more oppression, but it’s a thing that’s said or a thing that’s written and it’s not a thing that’s lived. And I think you all have a good model of like, we’re saying it and we’re doing it, but it actually, when you look at how we’re structured and how we do things, it exists throughout everything that we do. And so the last thing that I’m gonna touch on is for this particular aspect of the Color Coded Collective, you mentioned that you had 11 members and some of your organizers, designers, developers, educators, art background. So it’s very multi-disciplinary, trans-disciplinary, we can probably throw some more prefixes in there. How does that influence or how is that shaped, or like, was that intentional? How does having all of those different background sort of converging together help Color Coded Collective do its work?
[21:05]
A: That’s really, I think important to the makeup of like, how we do our work. Um, I come from, we were talking about the non-profit industrial complex earlier. And like, um, being in non-profit land for awhile, and like, being really exhausted and like not really being happy in those spaces. Like, there’s particular ways that I think we talk about different things and in Color Coded, I feel like we – because we’re coming from many different backgrounds and with like, a lot of artists in the space, I feel like it’s, we talk about projects in a more like, creative way. And, we’re also like, have a range in our ages from like early 20s to 40s. And so that also kind of helps with like, um, different perspectives coming in, and all of us being in different like, experiencing different things in our lives, at different stages in our lives, and so, yeah.
[22:08]
C: Yeah, and just to add to that, I think, the like, creative aspect or, yes, that kind of energy makes it so that we, we’re ok with like experimenting.
LS: Mhmm.
C: Like, I think like a lot of what we do in Color Coded. Yeah, it’s trying to practice what we think liberation could look like, or what we want this world to look like, and we’re doing that in the middle of this world, right. So, there’s things that we try that might not work. Um, but we’re trying it again. So, I think a big part of the collective is that we’re all like, like lifelong learners, like, we’re very open to learning, to experimenting, yeah, that brings in a different kind of energy, I think. Because we don’t know what abolition necessarily looks like. Or we don’t know what a world without capitalism looks like. So, it is a lot about like, imagination and experimenting for us.
LS: Mhmm.
C: It makes it fun! Ha ha ha.
[23:01]
A: Sometimes messy too.
(Ha ha ha ha)
AD: Yeah, thank you so much. That is so interesting to think, and to like, really acknowledge the messiness of a process. Toya and I are both in like, academia in part of lives and so like, this idea of having an answer, or like, knowing exactly what you wanna say is pervasive in the academy and so, I really appreciate, it’s like – we don’t know what’s gonna happen. We’re just trying and being creative and that’s awesome.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: To just hear. You know, folks are doing it, trying out stuff and see what’s…
C: Ha ha ha.
[23:28]
AD: So, our next question is to talk a little bit in that process, of like identifying the projects that you have decided to work on as a Collective, what are some of the goals that you currently have? Yeah.
C: One of the goals of the Collective I think, is also to kind of, re-… not redefine but I guess, yeah, just kind of explore what technology actually is. One series that we have is our community tech workshop. So, we invite different community members to share a technology with other community members, with their neighbors. So, for example, we’ve had a friend, Agua Dulce, come in and do plant bundles. To kinda talk about plant technologies and how they can be, so the medicinal properties of plants, not just like, how they interact in your body but also like, the spiritual component, like all of that. So, for us, a big goal of the community tech workshops is to expand the definition of technology to also include technologies that are not just Western technologies. Or not just digital technologies. So I think when a lot, when we say tech, a lot of people think of like, you know, websites, development, computers, internet, all of that stuff, which is great but that’s just one kind of digital technology. So yeah, kinda of exploring it and honoring you know, a lot of the knowledge that comes from our lineage that didn’t get recognized as knowledge, as important, as a technology by Western society, by colonization.
[25:06]
A: I also wanna add that, at Color Coded, we believe that technology is not neutral. And that everything is by design. And so, what we mean by that is that, you know, technology is created by real people. And when we’re talking about like, software, things of that like, technology nature, and so, it really does matter who’s in the room when this technology is being created.
LS: Mhmm.
A: And then like, who has the decision making powers in the process. So we, try to ask ourselves like, are we centering our lived experiences and needs and creativity, um, of our communities when we’re creating these technologies? Are we exchanging knowledge? Like, in a way that encourages collaboration, um regardless of education or expertise? Are we being, um, designing technology to build capacity and collective power?
And so, a lot of the goals kind of connect to these questions. So, one of the things that Cesia talked about was our workshops, our community tech workshops. We also provide, I guess it’s like a project/service called Office Hours where, we offer office hours for people in our community. They can just book time with us to get mentorship on a project that they’ve been working on or something they might need help with. It could be design mentorship or maybe even learning how to use the software and we do this for free.
[26:38]
AD: That’s awesome.
LS: Yeah.
AD: I wanted to kinda ask for, maybe more insight on, as you’re talking about technology and expanding kind of like, how, we see it, recognize it, identify it, and then, you talked about like beyond Western notions of technology, or creations of technology, as well as digital ones. How does this connect to like this idea of different knowledges? So, I feel like you also mentioned talking about honoring different knowledges of plants or uses of Earth and society, and different kinds of things, so, I guess I’m asking like, what do you see as the relationship between like different knowledge systems and different kinds of technology? Are they the same? Is it different? Connected?
[27:24]
C: Yeah, so I think for us, like, the dictionary definition of technology is the practical application of knowledge.
LS: Mhmm.
C: Especially in a particular area. So for example, we started a project where we’re starting to define what is abolition technology. And so, for us, it’s like, what are you intentionally practice to get to X, right. And so, what are your intentional practice to get to abolition, that would be an abolition technology.
And, there’s many ways that you can apply, right, that knowledge, what you have learned but sometimes that also depends on like, access, or like how you can share it. So for us, it’s not necessarily about saying like, you know, this knowledge system is better or healthier or whatever than this knowledge system, but like, let’s understand that there are many and, in the Western world and colonization, that was a project to only uplift a certain kind of technology that only benefitted a certain kind of people.
LS: Mhmm.
C: And again, I think, I talked a little bit about this, but for us, you know, that’s like the old white men. Ha, you know, the Enlightenment, um, being centered and making sure that those folks are being taken care of. And when you’re centering them, when you’re centering that idea, what they value, what these folks value right, then you might miss a lot of other kinds of technology, a lot of other kinds of knowledge systems. And, Color Coded being a BIPOC space, a Black, Indigenous, POC only space, is about us having, there’s a lot of like, grief that also goes with like, look at all this knowledge and technology that my people had, my lineage had that I don’t have access to. And there’s also a lot of, just in general, a lot of, in terms of, I also see like colonization, or Western society as one of the main reasons why we broke from seeing and honoring nature, or the plant world, or the animal world, as also being valuable and something to respect. Right. So for us, that story is connected to colonization. It’s connected to whiteness, to colonization, to settler colonialism, all that stuff, so. In different lineages, right, that do respect those bodies, what could relationships, what could humans and animal relationships, what could humans and plant relationships look like for example.
So, back to why it’s a POC only space, it’s like, sometimes you need a space where folks just understand that. Um, and you don’t have to like derail or explain things to folks, and also just, yeah, having a space so that you’re not holding the grief by yourself. Of like, all that has been lost, all that – we talked about how our space is for historically excluded folks, not just exclusion in terms of like, access to wealth or capital, but also exclusion in like, our narratives, our stories, our knowledge systems, um, don’t get valued and don’t get seen often in this way. Yeah, it being a BIPOC space is kinda important for us in terms of just, those conversations and kinda flowing and just even allowing like, what do we get to explore.
LS: Mhmm.
C: Um, what technologies have been lost? What do we get to explore today? I think it’s important for us to have a space for our self to kinda ask those questions, um, again without having to like, derail, or center the typical body that is centered in our world today.
[30:44]
AD: Thank you for adding more to that. I appreciate that.
LS: Yeah, and you mentioned abolition technology, which leads into the next question that we had. And so, what role do you see technology, specifically technology from, with the perspective that Color Coded Collective takes on technology, um, playing in abolition?
[31:05]
A: We’ve been working on a series with the STOP LAPD Spying Coalition. And we’re calling the series, embodied abolition. And so, I think the whole idea of embodied abolition is that it’s like an art in practice space. And so, we’re not claiming to like, know, or define abolition technology for ourselves as experts or anything like that, but to kind of come to defining that together as a group. And so, we’ve been holding space for conversations about. We’re like, experimenting with like art, how can we make art? Or, use different tools in talking about abolition?
[31:49]
C: Yeah, and the name of the series is Embody Abolition, Build Many Worlds. You need lots of knowledge to be able to do those things. You need lots of intentionality, intentionality around like, yeah, being – kinda how you were saying, like, ok we’re for the liberation of our communities but what does that mean, right?
LS: Mhmm.
C: Like, if we’re saying we want access to these things and our folks don’t have access to that, ok, what does that look like in practice? What does that look like in our community? What do we need to build so that folks do have access to, you know ‘x’ that they want? So, yeah, we definitely think technology is an important role of kinda, future building. Or creating the world that we want to live in.
LS: Mhmm.
C: Yeah, I’ll stop there. Ha.
[32:34]
LS: I like that phrase, future building.
AD: You mentioned that project, um, Embody Abolition, and you also mentioned some other things that you’re recently working on, this campaign called tech is not neutral. #techisnotneutral . Um, can you tell us, just kind of lay out some of the projects that you maybe haven’t mentioned? Or maybe if you wanna elaborate more on some of those projects that you have? For our listeners, that maybe might be in the area that wanna learn from or take part or maybe even create their own? Yeah, so what are some of your projects that are - you’re also doing?
[33:11]
A: Right now we’re actually in the process of thinking about next year and like, thinking about what we’re going to be prioritizing. But one of the things that we did last year was this series called ‘Trainings’ and it was basically tech, and we were talking a lot about what is tech education? And who is included or excluded from being able to participate in the learning and building of technology? And for a lot of our members in the community who are supporting families or have full time jobs, it’s pretty difficult to access like, tech education or coding boot camps, which could cost like $10,000 for like a ten week course. And, so we designed trainings which were basically, they were like short classes with small cohorts of people. And some of them were around like, learning how to do design. One was about like, HTML, CSS, learning how to do websites. And so, that was one of the projects we were working on recently. And the long term vision for trainings was for us to figure out a way for our communities to actually get paid to learn. Um, but we’re still experimenting and trying different models to get to that.
C: Yeah, and for use, that piece was important because not everyone has the ability to take time off of work to learn. So, how do we kinda think about and level that playing – level that field, right. So, yeah, the long term vision was to actually be able to provide our students with a stipend that we get.
Another like, big area of work that we don’t kinda talk about – but also, or talk about externally, but we talk about at least within the Collective, is like, solidarity economies. Or like, this just transition framework. And, if we know that we don’t want capitalism, but what do we want instead? And so, for us, part of the – yeah, part of the reason why it’s a Collective is also, you know important as an anti-Capitalist practice. We have been exploring what could be alternative economic models. We work with folks who do like solidarity economies work. We’ve had like, different panels or gatherings with co-ops, POC co-ops to kinda talk to each other and get support from each other. So, that’s another, I feel like, area that comes into the space that, yeah we don’t shine the light on as much.
[35:43]
A: I think even the way we’ve tried to figure out like, how do we make money for our own collective?
LS: Mhmm.
A: We get, like – do something? Has been an experiment on it’s own. We got hired to do a website, and um, that turned into kinda like, us figuring out if we could maybe do work for hire. And, it kinda looked more like an agency type of work. Where we’re getting hired to do websites and things like that. And so, you know, we wanted to kinda create the type of work spaces that we want to be in and so, decision making about even like, how much each worker gets paid is kinda determined by the people who are on the project. And, we were calling that labs. We did a lot of labs work this past year. And we have this model right now where, 30% of whatever we bring in, we give back to the Collective and that kinda allows us to fund our retreats or whatever we’re looking to fund for that year.
[36:42]
LS: Those are all really dope projects. And again, I think, you all talking about how y’all are like, are doling – like distributing the money, so like, make this money, 30% goes to the Collective. I think again, just to highlight how, like at every step of the way, you’re really embodying and enacting this vision that you have. Which is dope. But I just wanna take a second to shine a light on that.
So you talk a lot about experimenting and how it’s messy. You may try something out and it doesn’t work. And I was thinking about like, how long have we been under like, the foot of the current way the world operates. And then, nothing is gonna change – it’s not gonna change overnight, and it’s not just gonna be a single solution. And it’s going to be messy. So, can you all just maybe talk about what that process of experimenting is like? And when it doesn’t work out? And when it does work out? Yeah, that is the question. I don’t know if it makes sense.
[37:41]
A: Yeah, I mean. I think Cesia and I will probably have many different examples, but I’ll just provide one, like. I was talking about labs earlier, um, this model of like working and making websites for example. I can recall like, one time when we were having a discussion about like, how do we make money together? And what does it mean for us to make money together? And that’s kind of what led us to like, a how we decide how to distribute money amongst the workers. Like, do we even want to do hourly model work? Or do we wanna just split the money evenly? Like, I wouldn’t say it’s. I mean, it’s not just messy, it’s more like, we take time to have the conversation. So, those conversations are sometimes really long and not easy. You know, and then we bring up a lot of things, like, capitalism. What does it mean to be anti-capitalist? And how are we defining that even? So that’s like one example I can think of. Ha ha.
C: Yeah, or like, how does your own class background, right, come into the space? Like, what does class mean in the space if we’re talking about money together?
I think a big piece of the experimenting part is also like, history, or looking back as well. Like, I feel like a lot of like, whenever we’re working on a project, we’re very informed by like, why is this the way it is? Right, like there’s a reason why our, certain community members don’t have access to healthcare. There’s a reason for all of these things, so, can we look back at some of the root causes of these, yeah, these reasons, these things that were – of the situation that we’re exploring, and how do we make sure that we don’t perpetuate that? If it’s not something that, yeah, we feel, um, is good for us, right. Or is not liberatory, or is still dominating some person or exploiting some person. Like, how do we make sure that we don’t replicate those and instead do like, more generative type projects? Right, so, we don’t know what necessarily a generative project looks like yet, but we do know what extraction looks like. And we can see that by tracing the history of like, capitalism, or how it has impacted our community members or whatever, so. Yeah, I think a lot of like, future building or like, world making, it’s like, important for us to look at the past. So yeah, I feel like a lot of like, history and yeah, talking about those systems, the root causes is a big part of the experimentation process.
[40:09]
AD: So interesting, as I’m listening to you share this solidarity economy. That term really comes to mind, I’m wondering if you can really kinda explain a little bit more about what that means, or how you’re making sense of it, and for me, I was thinking of the word co-operatives. So, like there was a whole, you know, many different types of times in history where cooperatives were this movement of creating different types of systems of production and, you know, thinking of distribution and like, all these different labor relations. And so, I guess I have a two part question is you could talk a little bit about the solidarity economy – what is that? And then also, just thinking of the context that we live in a capitalist society, and so, how do you discuss? What are the things that come up when you’re thinking of taking on projects and like, in a space where everything is for, all the different things that you’re, you know, commodifying – and at the same time, trying to create a space that’s within the Collective that’s different? So like, that tension I guess, between in a collective and then interacting, or doing something outside of a collective, er you know, beyond the collective? So, those two parts. Choose whatever, ha, you’d like and makes sense.
LS: Ha ha.
[41:24]
C: Ha ha. Ok, so, yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of folks doing solidarity economies work that, I see it connected a lot to like, policy and yeah, like cooperatives and stuff like that. But, for us, when we first like, started exploring like, what does that mean, I think it was just like, being very inspired by our community members. So, for example, there’s a collective of beat makers, um, in, that mostly live in LA, East LA area, I guess. And it’s called Condina Records, and it’s called Condina Records because it’s the style of how they release each tape. As a cassette tape. So how they release each tape. So, condina. Condina is a term that comes, and it has many names – it’s really fun to see it on Twitter, I think people do like, what condina, would be called in like all these different languages. It’s a big like, migrant economy practice, where, if you don’t have money – sometimes, work class folks sometimes don’t have like a big pot of money available to them, so you can get a condina and someone in the building will be like, hey neighbor, everyone’s gonna put in $100, and then you get a number, so if there’s 10 people, everyone puts in $100, each month, so I might be the sixth person in line. So, month six, I’m gonna get $1000. And, that has historically allowed folks to buy like, a new fridge, or a stove, or whatever the family might need. But it’s very inspired by like, migrant, like migrant economies or like, migrant solidarity. And, yeah, as an undocumented person, like, you know, these are things that we just like – our community has like, even though we have had a lot of challenges, maybe like a lot of trauma, you know, colonization is a big piece of trauma that’s still happening. We also have a lot of like, resilience, um, reimagination, and like, yeah, just different practices of – different practices of making sure that we’re taking care of our own, I guess. Is what I’m trying to say.
AD: Mhmm.
C: So, I think for us, it’s like, it’s learned from solidarity economies. Um, from that lens, has meant that we’re talking to different cooperatives. It really centers relationship building I think for us, and like, we’re very intentional about who we partner with or who we are going to go into a long term relationship, partnership as a collective, for example.
Also, the other part of the question, as to like, the tension of, yeah, we’re anti-capitalist, we’re all of these things, but we still have to live in this world. Ha.
[44:00]
A: Yeah. I think, you said everything that I would have said.
(Ha ha)
A: We did have an opportunity to actually build with other folks that were interested in doing, like, becoming a cooperative or in the process of becoming a cooperative. So, last year, three or four of us were part of a class that was at a community college here. It was put on by the LA Co-Op Lab, so, we were talking with different folks in the city who were thinking about cooperative business models and like, what that means and so we were looking at all kinds of different examples of co-ops around the world, like, folks like Mondragon, and kind of thinking about like, locally what kind of co-op business were trying to start and what, and sharing knowledge and information. And doing things like, making like a business, I don’t know, I can’t remember –
(Plan?)
A: Yeah, a business plan. Things like that, that would be useful, and yeah.
[45:06]
AD: Thank you, I know that second question is not like, an answer necessarily-iable, necessarily, but, I appreciate all that you’re sharing.
LS: Did you say answerable?
AD: Answerable. Yeah. I mean it’s a tension, it’s a struggle. It’s what we’re in right now, so, but I appreciate you sharing all that you’re sharing right now.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: It’s amazing to hear about this project. All your projects.
LS: Yeah. Yeah yeah, I mean, I would love to keep you here for like, ever, and chat with you.
(Everyone laughs/giggles.) But we wanna definitely be respectful of your time, and want to thank you again for –
AD: Yes.
LS: Taking the time to speak about your Collective and the work that you do. Um, but now take the time, to give an opportunity to share any upcoming projects, if folks wanna get in touch with you, how can they do that? AD: Social media stuff.
LS: Yes, plug all the things that can be plugged.
[45:57]
C: Yeah, if I can, I guess I’ll just touch quickly on that last question. And then if folks have a way to shout out our projects, which is Embody Abolition, Build Many Worlds. So I feel like part of the reason why that’s the name of the title, is like, you know – what does embodying abolition even mean, right? So for us, I think, it’s also important to define like, carceral technologies, and what we mean by abolition, so we’re not – yes, we don’t want prisons and cages, but for us, it kinda goes beyond that. And, so we see like, carceral technologies, like systems of domination, and so like, white supremacy, like the gender binaries, um, all of these things are carceral technologies that we want to abolish for this world that we wanna live in. We also know that, it’s not gonna look the same for everyone. And so, how do we build one world where many worlds fit. That’s very inspired by los Zapatistas, who kinda have that as their, yeah, as one of their principles I guess. And so, I think, yeah, how do we start building like that world, like today and in our bodies? And so, because we are shaping this society, like sometimes we embody these carceral technologies.
(Mhmm)
So, how do we make sure that, you know, we are not – that we’re abolishing those within our own personal lives. And kinda speaks to that whole like, bringing it home, like we’re talking about yeah, abolition and alternatives to like, incarceration. Like, what does that mean when you interact with your neighbors? When you’re a collective, like how does that um, change – it has to be like an internal work process too right?
LS: Mhmm.
C: So, like, we define anti-Blackness as a carceral technology, like, as a Zapoteca Mexicana, you know, coming from so-called Mexico, that’s some work that my people have to do. We have to like, embody and abolish that behavior within ourselves. And in the process, build these many worlds where we can all live in.
So, we just had our first Embody Abolition, Build Many Worlds hacker space, of this year, in December, to kinda help us prep for what it’s gonna look like next year. So, keep posted on that. We’re working on a few projects that are coming out of that space, and we could also follow @StopLAPDSpyingCoalition, for updates on that project, as well as, our own social media which is @ColorCodedCollective on Instagram, and our website is colorcoded.la . You will be able to find, we’re also on all the platforms. So, yeah, @ColorCodedLA on Twitter, that’s where we are.
[48:36]
AD: Great, thank you.
LS: Yes, thank you, and can folks invite you to do workshops? So, if someone wanted to bring you into their class or invite you in for a talk? Is that something that you all do as well?
C: Yes! Definitely, yeah. If you’re an institution, yeah, hire us, give us money.
AD: Ha ha ha.
LS: Facts. Ha ha ha.
(…)
LS: …website.
C: Yeah, we’re not trying to do free education for white folks. But do have partnerships, or like, a sliding scale as well, with our services. So you can hire us to build things. Or, yeah, if you – we have, yeah, workshops, do consulting, we’ve done like, project management, work flow type stuff. But in terms of like, the programming, yeah, definitely invite us to do a workshop. There’s, you can look on our website, we have, I guess, an archive of all the workshops that we’ve done in the past. Some of them are, workshops that we prep together, but other folks that we also want to uplift the labor that they’re doing. And the technologies that they’re doing.
AD & LS: Cool.
[49:36]
LS: Yeah, great, thank you so much!
AD: Yes.
LS: For your time.
[49:41]
[♫ Song begins playing: “Starfish and Coffee” by Prince.]
[50:12]
AD: You just heard Prince’s “Starfish and Coffee”, which was on his album entitled, Sign o the Times, released in 1987. Such an interesting song.
LS: It’s a very interesting song. Also the album cover for that is actually really dope too, so check that out. It is an interesting song, there’s a little history behind it. That we had to google, because as I listen to this song, I was like I don’t know what this song is. Ha ha.
AD: What’s happening? What do these lyrics mean? What’s the story?
LS: So, the song is about a little girl named Cynthia Rose, who someone that Prince knew, went to school with. She was from the perspective of the other students, a little weird, but this, the friend that Prince knew would talk to this little girl and she would always say her favorite number is 12. Everyday, she would ask and she would always answer 12, and she would get – she would be filled with joy that he would guess it correctly every single time.
AD: Mhmm.
LS: And, whenever they asked what she had for breakfast, she would always – I don’t know if they would ask or if she would just offer, she would say she had starfish – the lyrics is starfish and and coffee, but she would say starfish and pee pee, but Prince was like, that, you can’t talk about pee.
AD: Can’t do this…
LS & AD: Ha ha ha.
LS: And so there, this is then another thing that we looked up. So there’s an article where they’re asking Prince about this song. Cause people were like, is this about taking drugs? What is this about?
AD: There’s a lot of online conversation about what is the meaning – it’s true.
LS: Yeah. So the question asked to Prince was: there’s been a discussion going around the net –
AD: The internet.
LS: Ha, about what starfish and coffee means, can you explain that song? Is it about a mentally challenged girl? His response is, let’s say mentally alternative or gifted, shall we. I think the lyrics are fun and it cheers me up to think of idiosyncratic kids like Cynthia Rose, loving life. This song represents to me, a celebration of differences. Oh, and I will also say in the other article, they talked about Cynthia, where she would always draw, like these images. And the friend that was telling Prince about Cynthia Rose, talked about her and was like, oh it looks like she was planted here from another planet and she would draw these images that only she knew the meaning of. And so then Prince turned that into a song.
AD: Which is amazing
LS: Mhmm.
AD: To kinda, honor and uplift.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: And like, highlight. Like, hey why not, have this as a song. But I guess maybe some of the thoughts she was sharing made it into the song? I guess it seems like.
LS: Yeah.
AD: Yeah. Yeah, cause I heard it too, and the song, I mean it’s, I’ve seen it on, Muppets? Muppets or Sesame Street, I forget. This song was like, Prince was on it and there’s YouTube videos.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Of him, it must be Sesame Street. On Sesame Street performing this song. Cause I think little kids really love it too. Like hearing it.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: But, yeah. What is your thought about? I mean, just reading this and kinda finding out about the history of it?
LS: Yeah, I mean the – I needed the history cause, ha ha ha.
AD: I was like, what’s going on?
LS: I had to look up the lyrics, Atasi showed me the lyrics, I was like, uh, this still means – I don’t know nothing. I mean, I think when I think about abolition, this would be the work that Color Coded Collective is doing, we think about like, this is what the tech industry is, this is who it serves, this is what it looks like, this is how much classes are, but we’re going to do tech in a way that’s like for and by the people. And I think when I think about abolition, and like Cynthia Rose, it’s like how do we, we need to get rid of a society that allows someone like Cynthia Rose to be labeled as –
AD: Other.
LS: As other.
AD: Yeah.
LS: And like, society has to be structured in a way that people are always safe, comfortable, and able to like, live their life.
AD: Mhmm.
LS: And so I think Prince did that. Like, in making this song.
AD: By having this song, yeah. That’s an interesting connection. Look, you tied it all in.
LS: Yeah, I mean now that I know the history behind it, I was like, I really like this song.
AD: Yeah.
LS: And it really is, I mean, I don’t think Prince had abolition in mind, but we think about how do we dream about, like what are examples, or how do we dream about it? Maybe this is it, maybe it’s not. Maybe I’m overthinking, trying real hard.
AD: No. Ha ha. I think the sentiment still holds, that, to widen our view of possibility to something that could be like, not even make sense, but maybe it makes sense for others. Or to allow the various possibilities to come to fruition. To just be spoken. I mean, this is just lyrics, right. These lyrics are kinda like, fun, kinda catchy, and they’re like, but what does it mean, and just kinda just say it. Like, that – it’s fine, just sing it.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Cause everybody’s just jamming along singing it anyways.
LS: Mhmm.
AD: Or, you know. So, that’s kinda cool. Yeah. So we hope you enjoyed it.
LS: Yeah.
AD: And check out more of the Color Coded Collective, when you get a chance. They have a lot of different workshops and things online. Um, support them if you can.
LS: Yeah, support them. Hire them.
AD: Yes. Especially if you’re in the area.
LS: Yeah, so that they can continue to do the work for the community that they do.
AD: Absolutely. Great, so we will talk to you next time. Bye!
LS: Bye!
[55:22]
[♫ Musical outro.]
AD: Check us out at Abolition Science [dot] org, where you can sign up for our newsletter.
LS: And follow us on Instagram @abolitionscience and also follow us on Twitter @abolition_sci
AD: See you soon!
